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Monkey
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[17:53:38] Shitface : monkey is a redhead too
[17:53:47] Shitface : and so is caiite
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PostSubject: Heracross   Wed Sep 22, 2010 2:46 pm

If you didn't hear Smogon has deemed Heracross as UU. So lets discuss if we want Heracross to be OU or UU here. If Heracross is outclassed in the OU game, he would be BL AT THE LOWEST, IMO! He just ruins 90% if not more of the UU Metagame. Weezing is the only "counter" as defined by Smogon that I can see in the UU Metagame.

Feel free to bring up some other UU counters to Heracross, but note a "counter" must:
A) Take a DAMAGING MOVE on a switch in.
B) Take a second hit or outspeed Heracross.
C) KO Heracross before getting KO'd itself.

Also note that Adamant Scarf Heracross(396 Speed) outspeeds Swellow(383 Speed) which, with the exception on Electrode, is the fastest poke in the UU Metagame. So Scarf Heracross outspeeds all except for Electrode in the UU Metagame. Then ontop of that he has 383 Attack. Not to mention Night Slash, Arial Ace, Close Combat, Brick Break, Megahorn, Earthquake, Stone Edge, Low Kick, and Rock Slide as a move pool. Then you can say Guts + Facade. For those of you who like move pools.

My vote is for OU. Post your thoughts.

Monkey

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PostSubject: Re: Heracross   Wed Sep 22, 2010 4:25 pm

You made him sound uber in your argument lol.
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Monkey
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Misc. Info : humor of the glory days:
[17:53:38] Shitface : monkey is a redhead too
[17:53:47] Shitface : and so is caiite
[17:53:50] Shitface : and so is tom
[17:54:19] MonkeyJR : Shitface i bald <---LOL!


PostSubject: Re: Heracross   Wed Sep 22, 2010 5:54 pm

I know nearly no one would agree...but if Chomp/Mence are Uber I'd put Heracross up there, HOWEVER, Gliscor(OU) is a decent Heracross counter. But if you ask me with a meta game where Salamence and Garchomp are "over powered" then I'd throw some pokes like Heracross out there. Not to mention in Generation 5 you can use items(to an extent) which could raise his speed and make him speedy, able to use that move pool, his massive attack, he'll be used 90% for me, 100% in UU for now.

Monkey

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PostSubject: Re: Heracross   Wed Sep 22, 2010 10:46 pm

I vote OU, even with Garchomp and Salamence in OU here...
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PostSubject: Re: Heracross   Wed Sep 22, 2010 11:23 pm

UU. Small coverage with his seemingly wide movepool, easily walled off by a rotom or weezing. Been playing with it, and swellow is a perfect counter to non-scarf sets, which are by for more common and useful.
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PostSubject: Re: Heracross   Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:26 am

My vote is for OU. Its too difficult to counter Heracross in UU, even though there are some good pokes to do it. The problem is, you get a rate of 95% of UU teams using Heracross and a counter for their opponents Heracross. Like it has been said, Heracross is still capable of wrecking much of OU. We should just let him stay there.

Smogon is wrong about this decision Neutral it probably won't matter though anyway. With Black and White pokemon/moves/abilities the game is changing again. For all we know, Heracross could get a huge boost and be a necessity in OU teams. Or maybe other stuff will more easily counter Heracross. It doesn't matter.

OU if we need to make a decision.

Wait until B/W changes re-shape competitive play otherwise. Then figure stuff out.
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Monkey
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Misc. Info : humor of the glory days:
[17:53:38] Shitface : monkey is a redhead too
[17:53:47] Shitface : and so is caiite
[17:53:50] Shitface : and so is tom
[17:54:19] MonkeyJR : Shitface i bald <---LOL!


PostSubject: Re: Heracross   Thu Sep 23, 2010 11:00 am

Monk wrote:
easily walled off by a rotom
Is this a joke Monk or are you just retarded? Only the regular Rotom is in the UU Meta-Game, which stats are less bulky. 252 HP and 252 Def with a +Def Nature on Rotom takes 46.1% - 54.6% from an Adamant non-boosted Heracross. Not to mention you said Scarf isn't the most common one, so get a Swords Dance and it does 91.4% - 107.9% to your Max HP/Def Rotom or a Flame Orb set can do 68.4% - 80.9%(which is generally run with SD). I wouldn't exactly call that walling it. Not to mention Modest + Specs does 71.1% - 84.1% to a no S.Def. and no HP EV'd Heracross. So the lowest Heracross can do to a Rotom is 46.1% - 54.6%, which is generally run with a Scarf, so baring no Scarf on Rotom Heracross can easily outspeed and assuming no Min Damage two turns in a row, 2HKO it. As for Swellow it does takes 121.1% - 142.9% from an Adamant Close Combat(note most of them pack Stone Edge for Flyers) so it can't switch in. Your only hope with Swellow is that he isn't a Scarf Heracross in which case you'd most likely see Heracross switch. Now then to safely get Swellow in vs Heracross you either A) need Heracross to lose a bunch of HP due to the occasional Flame Orb without Swellow losing alot due to the common Toxic, B) get it down to a 1-1 battle so Heracross can't switch, C) lose a death fodder and then have Swellow come in(oh wait, that's the reason Salamence went from OU to Ubers).
Heracross in UU HAS NO COUNTER! The closest thing you could say is a Weezing...but that isn't an actual counter. The Flame Orb + SD set is faster, does 92.8% - 109.3% after 1 SD + Flame Orb + Guts Facade, and does 52.3% - 62.3% to Heracross. Meaning even if it's 1-1 Heracross gets an SD up, Weezing does Fire Blast(I'll give you the benifit of the doubt) and does 52.3% - 62.3%. Now then Heracross uses Facade and it does 92.8% - 109.3%. Not the middle of that damage is 101.2% so assuming it's not min damage(or close to min) you get the Weezing.
Just as Salamance "has no OU counter" Heracross "has no UU counter". I didn't even do the full counter test, I took away the switch in turn to give Weezing even more of an edge. I'll say this once more so you can read it.
HERACROSS HAS NO UU COUNTER!

Edit: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2756885&postcount=1580 <---Even people of Smogon agree with me.

Monkey

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PostSubject: Re: Heracross   Thu Sep 23, 2010 4:52 pm

I seriously cannot put how much i hate smogon into words, lol. People on that site need to grow and just play the metagame without having to change teirs according to how much they lose. Lol anyways ....heracross, UU? Really? i mean i guess if you have a good strategy you could counter heracross in UU. But who wants to make a whole team just to counter one pokemon? IMO it ruins UU and it should be OU where there are fair counters. If hera gets help from setting up in UU i can see a scarfed set sweeping easily. Anyways, i vote OU.
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PostSubject: Re: Heracross   Thu Sep 23, 2010 6:15 pm

Rofl, Monkey obviously doesn't play UU enough to put together a solid argument.
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Monkey
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Misc. Info : humor of the glory days:
[17:53:38] Shitface : monkey is a redhead too
[17:53:47] Shitface : and so is caiite
[17:53:50] Shitface : and so is tom
[17:54:19] MonkeyJR : Shitface i bald <---LOL!


PostSubject: Re: Heracross   Thu Sep 23, 2010 7:00 pm

I took the Heracross sets and proved that your "counters" weren't counters. If you had any skill in UU you'd be able to counter my argument. List 3-5 counters for Heracross in UU and I'll say he can do well in UU, the fact of the matter is there is no true counter to Heracross in UU which makes him broken in that game. The closest thing is a check like Weezing or Swellow. No actual counter to him. Prove me wrong Monk. Oh wait, you can't. It has no UU counter. Just as Mence has no OU counter. Sure they can both be handled in OU or UU or where ever with 1/2 way decent skills, but the way they say who is Uber is if they have no OU counter. So if a UU poke has no UU counter how can you say he shouldn't be a UU Uber(aka BL, OU, or Uber).

Monkey

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PostSubject: Re: Heracross   Thu Sep 23, 2010 11:42 pm

Weedle counters everything.
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Monkey
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Number of posts : 1794
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Misc. Info : humor of the glory days:
[17:53:38] Shitface : monkey is a redhead too
[17:53:47] Shitface : and so is caiite
[17:53:50] Shitface : and so is tom
[17:54:19] MonkeyJR : Shitface i bald <---LOL!


PostSubject: Re: Heracross   Fri Sep 24, 2010 12:22 am

Maple_Syrupp wrote:
Weedle counters everything.
Not Sunkurn.

Monkey

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PostSubject: Re: Heracross   Fri Sep 24, 2010 8:12 pm

Perfect Heracross counter... DIGLETT!!!!
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